Thursday, April 16, 2009


Perhaps someone else is more able than to explain why this comment is so full of bigotry and offence. I don't get people like this, who blithely continue to insist they are neither bigots nor offensive, despite all evidence to the contrary. I am stumped for words here, or maybe I just can't be bothered cos I feel it would be waste of time trying to educate a closed mind.

I am disappointed. I just wanted to know the reasons why non heteros feel they need to find labels for themselves all the time. Why do you all feel the need to "come out", explain (and defend) your orientation? I have never had trouble accepting non heteros, my brother in law is one, has never had to "come out", as we always accepted him for what he was. He lives with a lovely partner and we regularly socialise with him and his friends, all of whom have accepted what they are without feeling the need to explain, label, demand equality or anything else. I love these people for that very reason. We meet on an equal basis, sexually, mentally, socially and any other way.

Sorry Susan, but you judged me, you are all judging me. I wanted to non personalise the discussion, being as it was about words/labels, not whether people are/are not gay or whatever. Will it make any difference to know who I am? Are my views any the less legitimate?

As for "marriages", the marriage ceremony clearly states (among other things) it is an institution first ordained for the procreation of children to be brought up in a Christian environment. As the Church still sees homosexuality as illegal, why can't gays just accept that, instead of trying to turn everything on its head for their benefit? Most people have absolutely no problems with civil partnerships or unions, which takes out the religious complications anyway.

If I accept you as gay, why can't you accept me as normal - why does using this label for myself immediately mark me out to be a bigot?

I am not being bigoted, biased, against you or anything, I just really find it difficult to understand why you can't live life without making so many issues out of things. I really feel very sad for you at times (and please don't take this as me being patronising or anything, feeling sad for someone is a perfectly legitimate human emotion!)

I remain,


Anonymous said...

Colin, I give up. What must I do or say to prove I am not bigoted??

No, hang on, you feel no reason to have to justify yourself, neither do I.

Iris said...

Dear "anon,"

Of course you remain anonymous. You hide behind your anonymity because you really don't have the courage of your convictions.

Marriage is, first and foremost, a contract - a LEGAL contract. Just try to get OUT of one. Oh, and the church doesn't DO divorces. They "accept" them.

At one time, marriage was a way for the government to exact a tax - a way to get money. Oh, and don't go running to Wikipedia for support. Wikipedia is not a scholarly publication. Anyone can put something up there.

Actually, people don't need marriage at all. They need laws to protect them and their children. It's the church that needs marriage. Marriage between a man and a woman is great. It's affirming. It's a kind of "outward bond" that is, otherwise, lacking. However, just because marriage was originally defined as a union between a man and a woman doesn't mean it can't be redefined. We do it all the time.

I don't need a formal marriage to define commitment to my relationship. I DO need marriage - the LEGAL marriage - to protect me and my offspring from becoming a pauper should the marriage fail - for whatever reason. I opted for a civil ceremony and I'm just as married as anyone else. Even the church I used to attend saw it as such.

The fact is, I don't care WHO gets married. I care that people care about each other. I care that the rights of one individual in a relationship aren't tromped on by the other relationship member's family because they don't like the fact their family member is not "straight" and want to punish the members of the couple. I know gay couples who have adopted children who were otherwise unwanted and raised them to be healthy and (in your opinion) "normal" adults.

I just don't see why any religious group is opposed to same sex marriage. If a church or denomination doesn't want to perform these marriages, that's just fine. Who'd want to be married by someone who doesn't approve of you?

Commitment and love are just that, no matter WHO is involved. People in these kinds of relationships should be able to enjoy all the protections and benefits of those who are in two gender marriages.

People who say they are good and kind religious people who, yet, want to (however subtly) want to deny same sex people the same rights and protections as they ARE bigots.

First of all, change the laws so these folks can be protected. I suppose you can leave wording that allows churches or clergy to refuse to mary same sex people if it offends them so. After all, you can't say a church that DOES allow same sex marriages is any less of a church. It's not for any sect or denomination to make that judgment. That's for God (in whatever form you believe) to do.

I am sick to death of the hypocrisy in so many organized religions. To me, the Christian Crusades are no more noble than the Muslim Jihad. There's more to "suffer the little children to come unto me" than happy little Sunday School classes. Get beyond the concrete and rigid preconceptions and see the honor, beauty, grace and reality that is all scripture.

Sad, sad world we live in that won't allow lovely people to be and to love and to be protected. Shame on anyone to preempt God's (or Allah's or Yahweh's) right to do the judging or, if needed, punishing.

Siani said...

So this person claims they're not bigoted. Yet they come out with this: "If I accept you as gay, why can't you accept me as normal". The fact that this person sees 'normal' as the antithesis of 'gay' proves they have a problem.

As for saying that gay people make issues out of things - that's as biased and silly as someone accusing the suffragettes or the American civil rights activists of kicking up a needless stink. I share my home with a gay relative, and we meet Anon's kind of bigotry, and self-denial thereof, all too often.

Anonymous said...

Iris, as I said, I have no problems with civil partnerships or unions and the legal protection this affords, what I do have a problem with is seeing other people's religious teachings and beliefs overturned just so gay people can get married in church. How can they go against the church's teachings on the one hand, and still want the churchs' blessing on the other? I am sorry for them that the church teaches otherwise, but one cannot cherry pick.

BammerKT said...

Oh good heavens. What about the fact that people have been making covenants of marriage for THOUSANDS of years pre-Christ? Anyone who thinks that is completely ignoring the VAST majority of human history that included non-Christian marriage.

I recently had a conversation with my husband about this issue because i am bewildered at the passionate objection to same sex marriage. We came up empty. I don't get it.

Anon, what do you really care what others do anyway? If you're a Christian, isn't it your job to show love to others and leave the judging up to your Father in heaven? I don't know what country you live in, but I am American and our government is supposed to keep it's nose out of religious business, not to mention the fact that two same sex partners can raise their families in a Christian atmosphere as well as anyone. (some probably even better than crazy Bible thumpers who take the word out of proper context and go around judging the world rather than following the example of Jesus and embracing all).

If you're so "righteous", then why do you need to hide? Colin doesn't. I don't need to. Iris doesn't feel the need. That says a lot right there.

I really with "I give up" was true, but alas, I have no faith in that statement

Susan said...

Anonymous comments are the same as junk mail. Thank you Iris for stating the obvious. Closed minds never change. I think this person has had enough attention. So Colin, how's are the socks coming along? Have you seen Kaffe's Regia "Exotic" Sock yarn yet? It is wonderful. When do we get to see updated pictures of the puppies??? I was thinking you might pick up another copy of your book on ebay? Take care and rise above petty people. As my mother used to say,"They are not worth your time."

Nan said...

I agree with Iris and Siani. When I saw the juxtaposition of gay vs. "normal", I was dumbfounded. I'd like to remind Mr. or Ms. Anonymous of a little thing that Jesus said. "Judge not, lest thou be judged." He also had a episode of not judging someone that the crowds had condemned. If various religions choose to alienate their gay brothers and sisters, I suppose that is their choice. But to forbid couples the civil rights that go along with a civil contract is bigoted and beyond unfair. And as far as the point that gay marriage somehow threatens the institution of marriage, I say BS! The threats to marriage arise from the behavior of the two people involved and not from what may be going on in someone else's marriage.

Whether Anonymous chooses to recognize it or not, treating any person or group of people differently from the rest is bigotry, which is always an ugly thing.

FuguesStateKnits said...

Ohhhhh let me at him or her!

"As the Church still sees homosexuality as illegal, why can't gays just accept that, instead of trying to turn everything on its head for their benefit? Most people have absolutely no problems with civil partnerships or unions, which takes out the religious complications anyway."

How do you define "the Church"??? My church doesn't define homosexuality as "illegal" (now you're mixing law with equity - ewwww). Why the hell should ANYONE - gay, bi, straight, whatever accept that? Why should "the church" have accepted any form of discrimination? That is the exact opposite of what the Founder of the Church would have proposed, so why should we agree with that evil nonsense? And again, please tell me who or what is "the Church?"
And please tell me how is simply saying that "we want equal rights, please" is "turning everything on its head?" I don't get your thinking.
What a particular religion believes about particular relationships is the business of the members of that church, but living in a multi-religious (including, BTW, non-religious people) society, requires a "live and let live" attitude toward others who do not believe as one does. If your particular church does not condone same-sex relationships, well and good. No one is asking for you to change that. But society requires all to behave with civility and courtesy. If I ask you not to call me by a particular name (I go by my middle name, for example), then common courtesy mandates that you abide by the decision I have made about what I would like to be called. Certain pejorative terms among the gay population have horrible historical significance (e.g. "faggot" stems from the bits of wood that were used to light the fires that burned gay people to death). Whether you know this or not is unimportant. What is important is that you respect your fellow citizens of the world and act like a grownup among them.
Civil unions, while a step in the right direction, are not the same as a marriage to many in this world. Again, if your church doesn't condone same-sex marriage, that is your church's business, but mine would like to conduct a few. So I would ask your church to butt out of the business of mine.
(OK I'm done!)
Finally - leave my friend Colin alone! I don't care who he has sex with - he's my friend and I don't like to see him hurt by this garbage!
So there!

LizzieK8 said...

Those in the "majority" (however that is defined) never understand why the "minority" feels excluded by terminology.

Men didn't understand why women raised a fuss about receiving letters with the salutation of "Dear Sir,".

Anonymous will never understand that the things s/he says are bigoted. It's just not in his/her reality.

kshotz said...

Much of what happens in religion is man-made, not God ordained. (This would be why there are so many brands of Christianity, no?? Also why some Christian churches do marry homosexual couples and others condemn!) We still call heterosexual couples who marry in front of a judge or out in Vegas "married"--do we not??

I'd think your closed mind would begin to feel a bit cramped by now!


Herzblut said...

>>>>>>If I accept you as gay, why can't you accept me as normal - why does using this label for myself immediately mark me out to be a bigot? <<<<

well, for starters, you are saying here that *I* am not normal, and I take offence at that.....