I have yet to learn that there are certain things I cannot do and retain my sanity. The most important of these is that I really must not get into any form of discussion with Fundamentalists. No matter how strong I may feel it always ends the same way: with flashbacks and me wishing to cease existing.
I spent five years in therapy being deprogrammed from the crippling thinking I had been taught. Eleven years later,I am still unable to remain calm or neutral when a Fundamentalist starts to spread their infected thinking.
This has resulted yet again in me leaving the arena in which this has been taking place. There may well be other much more interesting discussions going on in this arena but not without numerous people with this infected thinking. At first, it was relatively easy to say one’s piece and leave it alone. Then one finds that one can block others so that is the route I follow, blocking those whose infection is so strong there is no point in reading or responding. For me though, the more of them that appear, the more crazy I start to feel. One can’t block everybody!
I ended up really laying myself on the line and instead of using logic I just described what it was like to live with their hatred; how it affects me and how it affects others like me. This was a big mistake as all I did was open myself up to humiliation and more responses of cruelty and denial.
Thus I deleted myself from the discussion. I am angry at myself for having been such an idiot in baring my soul in the vain hope I might appeal to their conscience. This was such a stupid thing to do as all it did was excite their their hatred. All that matters to these people is that they are right and that their view of the world is the only one that matters, that their feelings are the only ones that matter. They are utterly self-centred. I know this so why the hell did I even attempt a sane discussion?
You may not but I live in a world that is becoming increasingly more frightening. The rise of Fundamentalism is threatening to myself, to John, and to all people who are different. The fact that Uganda either has or is about to pass a law against homosexuality which includes the death penalty just adds to this fear. They were helped in drafting this law by American senators and American Christians. This hardly makes me feel safe.
I truly fear that the the ground has been set for the second Holocaust and I have no faith that decent people will do anything to stop this from happening. They did not in World War II and I cannot see that people are any different today. Seriously, if I think about the future about whether John and I have another 30 years together, it is not his health nor mine that immediately comes to mind as a reason we may not. No. It is the health of society which appears to be failing and I am truly afraid that we will not have another 30 years because these evil people will have gained power by then.
We appear to be sleepwalking to our own destruction. We pussyfoot around these people, we say that we must respect their views, which is complete and utter nonsense. I respect all human beings but I certainly do not respect all viewpoints and it is a nonsense to suggest that we have an ethical duty to do so.
We have allowed the rise in homeschooling and faith schools which only further serves to indoctrinate children into vile prejudices and damages there ability to think critically. We have allowed people’s ideas to override the country’s laws. A simple common and plain example being that whilst it is illegal for non-Muslims and non-Jews to kill animals for meat in the way that they do, they have a legal dispensation to do so. We decry the circumcision of females yet it is not only legal to harm boys in this way but it is almost encouraged. The argument that female circumcision is worse is no argument for the mutilation of a boy.
People are entitled to their religious belief and I would never argue against that. What they are not entitled to do is to warp the minds of children by indoctrinating them nor are they entitled to have laws passed which favours their religious beliefs or makes legal or illegal that which their religion thinks ought.
Religion has no place in government nor in lawmaking nor in the decisions of scientists and their research. Regardless of how deeply held religious views may be they are not based on fact in any way shape or fashion and therefore there is no legitimacy at all in regarding their views as if they were based on fact.
As a society we really must get to grips with Fundamentalism. The writing is already on the wall and if we are not careful we will end up with a Christian theocracy just as evil as the Iranians regime and the Taliban of Afghanistan. Yes it does appear that the biggest danger right now comes from America but do not let that lull you into a false sense of security as the signs of fundamentalist infection in this country are very clear. Besides which when America falls, as it appears to be doing, we will be in serious trouble.
I am not a well-educated man with no consistent formal education beyond the age of 15. As a result I may not be able to express myself as well as I might if I had the education to back me up. All I can do is describe how I think and feel to the best of my ability.
One thing I will try and calmly address is the accusation that I personally and others who do not believe the claims of fundamentalists and are afraid of them, are guilty of hating a group of people just as we accuse them of being.
This is not true and this is why: I see them first off is seriously misguided people who think and act in a wicked way. This does not mean that I believe them to be evil people. There is a difference between thought and action and the person. I also would not make any laws, nor would I want any, that would render illegal their belief system. I have no wish to harm them in any way whatsoever. All that I wish is for them to stop harming other people. This they do but they deny it. They fail to understand that by holding a belief and preaching a belief that some people are less than others, indeed are wicked, they have created and they maintain an atmosphere in which the people they aim their vitriol at can be murdered and maimed. They have blood on their hands just as if they had maimed or murdered with their own hands.
Once again it comes down to personal responsibility and the understanding that how we think, what we truly believe, informs our actions and has a direct effect upon other people even if we are unaware of that. There is no escape from consequences no matter what we believe or how much we desire it to be so.
I will endeavour not to engage these people in discussion again and I am admonished to not cast pearls before swine.
12 comments:
You are right on the money. Also, you are extremely skilled at expressing yourself - far beyond many I have known with advanced formal degrees. I will never understand why we are so "respectful" of organized religious views (why limit it to fundamentalist, for the sake of this argument?) when they are so disrespectful of the views of those who disagree. I have been reading about all the other LEGITIMATE (at least as far as age and content) gospels that were, selectively, discarded by one "brilliant" (who would be, by today's standard nearly illiterate) cardinal "scholar" because the Church wanted to present a solid front for Christians. So, anything was was remotely negative or critical of Jesus was discarded and, even, hidden. I am NOT in this comment really criticizing the religion, but the leaders who are too afraid of controversy to entertain that the Jesus was far more human than the religious leaders of the time would have preferred. How a group of biased men could have fairly and impartially determined WHICH stories presented in the many gospels were legitimate is beyond me. Shame on the Church. There are lies of commission and lies of OMISSION and the Church is highly guilty of the latter. For the good Christianss I have angered, so be it. We'll all know in the end.
Education isn't everything, sweetie. I, too, could be considered not well-educated. True, some of this is my own fault, as I sabotaged myself when I didn't bother disguising my contempt for many who attempted to educate me -- there were a few good influences, but most were barely competent. However, I am a perpetual student of the school of life, and I learn by doing. Traditional education is so oppressive, as you know.
You express yourself well, and very intelligently.
We agree on many things, though not all, but who ever agrees with any other person 100% of the time?
Fundies scare the hell out of me, too. And you're right -- there is no way to "win" a discussion with them. They simply do not/cannot see reason.
I agree with pretty much everything you say about fundamentalism in this post, but must take issue with your mention of homeschooling as the source of some of these problems. From my own experience I would say that homeschooled kids seem to be amongst the most tolerant, creative, well-balanced and free-thinking individuals I've ever met and most certainly NOT the narrow-minded evil bigots you have described.
Another thought-provoking post, as always.
Annie-I think that within the context of this post, my reference to homeschooling is the that taken on by fundamentalist parents, not those who do it for reasons other than fear of them being contaminated by the un-Godly.
Sorry- went before ready! It is important, to avoid mistakes, to read things in the context of the whole. I think it is very clear I am talking about specific home-schooling, not all. I think my ramblings would become very tedious if I allowed for every possible interpretation of my words. So much so, I am sure I would lose any cogency I might have.
Dear Knitman, my heart aches for you and I don't know if I can express myself as eloquently as you have but I will try. I do believe in God and Jesus and all those things that you find silly and call fairy tales. But I also know the greatest commandment is too love one another and do not judge lest ye be judge. We believers are not all the same. I too am afraid of the fundamentalist wave that is sweeping America. The hateful language that is being spouted as if it's from God's own lips. In my view, you are incorrect that these people will be rewarded and never have to answer for their sins. Evil is evil no matter how it is dressed up, and while man may have trouble recognizing evil, God has no such limitations. I sincerely hope you are wrong that America will fall to the haters. I truly believe they are the minority - they just yell the loudest. I hope in my lifetime gay marriage will become a right utterly taken for granted. I would hope that, unlike what happened in WWII, reasonable people would stand for something, for the vulnerable if push came to shove. If it's any consolation, I do sense a bit of rebellion in the ranks. We are all so fatigued with having these people's very narrow vision of God shoved down our collective throats. So tired of having standards laid down that no one can live up to and more importantly are not biblical. You are not all the same. We are not all the same. Take heart and my sincere best wishes for you and John. Susan
Susan-thank you for your comment. I don't believe what they believe either but they certainly seem to firmly believe they have a free pass! I know not all religious people are so disturbed. My GP is a Xian and really quite lovely and an excellent Dr. I also know two female priests (Anglican)who are kind and compassionate people.
By the way, Mad Angel, I'm not "well educated," either, in the formal sense, although my husband is. No, education isn't everything, for sure. It does tend to give one the needed "union card" to be taken seriously in many situations. My main complain is the fact that someone so long ago decided what we would read (or be told) and what we would not. One very popular fundamentalist preacher in the U.S. said he had all the gospels he needed and that they, alone, were the truth and that all the others were lies BECAUSE (caps because this is the emphasis) they disagreed with MML&J. The thing is, MML&J disagree with some of these others, these others of which agree with each other. So, barring personal knowledge a few hundred years AFTER the fact, they had no way of knowing WHICH gospels were the truth. My feeling is that they were probably ALL the truth but subject to human interpretation and viewpoint. There were some gospels that claimed that Jesus had a temper and lashed out when he was a child. Well, so what? He WAS a child. That was the hole purpose, right? That God would come and dwell among men was the goal. A child is a child. If God came to Earth fully blown in a child's body, then, it wasn't all that great a miracle at all. If that were the case, he'd have had no need for Mary's milk or nurture. If he were God, fully formed and omnipotent, he would have needed no nurturing at all. He would have needed no food. He'd have needed no diaper or swaddling. He'd be completely "cooked." The idea, at least as I understand it, was that he'd be raised as a human child until such time as it became appropriate for him to be revealed and to be sacrificed. I have problems with ALL the gospels, to be fair. It's not that I don't believe in a God or a higher power. I just have problems with the human-writen and selected texts. And, honestly, I do NOT believe the apostles were, necesarilly divinely inspired.
I, also, feel the need to say I do not have argument with religions and support, fully, everyone's right to feel as they wish. However, when they feel so sure they are absolutely right and feel they can do damage or hurt to other human beings who are different than they or who believe differently than they, I feel they have strayed so far from their very own self-professed paths that they, themselves, are in danger of damning themselves.
There are two types of people. 1. The Reasonable and 2. The Unreasonable. The unreasonable will remain that way and will never see reason. It is impossible to reason with unreasonable people.
As small as it is, I am pinning my hopes on the broadening of civil rights for gays in the US. It is hard work for those on the front lines, but it is slowly spreading. I am also extremely happy that Arnold Schwartzenegger (sp?), a prominent Republican has come out squarely in favor of gay rights in California.
Those of us who care about tolerance and justice must be willing to put ourselves out there (I'm NOT including you in this, Colin, because of the damage you deal with every day) and stand up for the right of everyone to live as they wish, as long as it doesn't bring harm to others.
This includes those whose views are very different from ours. It also includes creating families that are different from the western tradition of marriage as only between one man and one woman, as long as all parties are truly consenting and not coerced in any way.
Thank you Colin so much for your post! I think your fear is very real, but I sincerely hope that the USA will not bow to fundamentalist voices regardless of the religion. ALL extremists pose a threat to our freedom and way of life.
Being Canadian, it is frightening to hear all comments and news articles and political debates coming from our southern neighbors. I know that there are fundamentalists everywhere (even here) however they don't push their view or shout as loudly as the ones from the south. I don't believe Canada will succumb to extremist views... However, should the States fall to them, I would be very very afraid for my country. We would be next... I am sure of that. And our way of life would be steamrolled. As much as my hope in the goodness of people and the faith I have in the Goddess would not allow this to happen... That fear stays strong in the back of my mind. I am afraid for my Daughter's generation... I hope we can just teach the next generation tolerance and that standing up for others rights is just as important as defending your own.
Do not allow intolerance and hate to pass... Regardless of who it's aimed at.
If you are not part of the solution... You are therefore part of the problem.
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